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Masteroftheweb
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Post by Masteroftheweb » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:37 pm

The reviews I read on Kingdom Hearts had high scores too... what you fail to realize, is I'm not going to like a game because everyone else likes a game. The reasons they state didn't appeal to me in the slightest. I never once mentioned its graphics or cell shading. Those were fine I guess.

And I did play 8, I don't remember exact details anymore, but I do remember the level of hate I had for it as if it were yesterday. I do remember the last boss battle though... more fucking boss form stages than a fucking shape shifter. I also liked those mombas, or whatever the little tiger things were.

It was the junction system I hated... I chalked it up to battle system, but meh.

I'm not all over the board. I like anime, this is true, I don't dislike kingdom hearts because of its anime cell shade base for gaming. But in the same respect I would probably hate mickey mouse, donald duck, and whinie the pooh if they were drawn in an anime format. Graphics don't change matters. I still hate those characters. I don't hate all of disney, (though sequals do ruin the few classics I did like) but there is alot of it I don't like.
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Post by Bogey » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:26 pm

As long as you don't say you disliked World of Illusion.
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Masteroftheweb
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Post by Masteroftheweb » Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:44 am

Never heard of it... so I can'tdislike it.
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Matt
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Post by Matt » Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:58 am

FF9 didn't develop th characters enough. I've actually been let down by all the FF games. I've always wanted longer games, longer story, more side missions and quests and more character development.
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Post by XenoRaven » Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:12 am

Lessee...Tales of Symphonia, Dragon Quest VIII, Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time, Paper Mario 2, and Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance are all RPG's I've played fairly recently that I'd say are better than Kingdom Hearts. Then, of course, there's Final Fantasy Tactics. And although it's dated at this point, I could make an arguement for Final Fantasy VII as well. Tacking on RPG elements to a mediocre combat system (or vice versa) a good game does not make. I hear far too many people say the same thing about KH. "Oh, it's a great RPG because you do all the actions yourself." That mindset blinds people from the fact that the combat system really isn't all that fantastic, and since they scrapped a lot of the elements that make an RPG what it is, in favor of a real-time combat system, it suffers on that front as well. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the game. It was an enjoyable play. But, the best RPG in 10 years? That's nonsense. My vote for that category goes to Chrono Cross.
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Post by Masteroftheweb » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:52 am

Chrono Cross WAS good... but my vote still has to go with Suikoden II... the story was so awesome, and so many characters to choose from, replay value was up there, multiple endings... I dunno... I simply loved it...
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Post by kaos » Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:11 am

XenoRaven wrote:That mindset blinds people from the fact that the combat system really isn't all that fantastic, and since they scrapped a lot of the elements that make an RPG what it is, in favor of a real-time combat system, it suffers on that front as well.
an equally blinding mindset is that an rpg, especially its combat system, has to be complicated to be any good.

many people claim the elder scrolls games to be a great run of rpgs. its combat system is just about the same as KH's

Their just isnt a real need for a turn based battle system in an rpg now unless you really want one to create some kinda pokeman yu gi oh type of thing.

story telling aside.
rpgs arent about about the turns. theyre about the controllable combination of variables that effect the outcome of the situation so that you may further advance your character.

those things are still very present in KH and ES.
no element was dropped save for the sillyness of waiting your turn.
Last edited by kaos on Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mik
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Post by Mik » Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:19 am

Tactics is dated but it's still a classic and I'm not discreditting any of the games you mentioned, even Will's Suikoden II, which I will probably never played given it's rarity and age, but when I researched the game there was talk of a re-release on the PSP so who knows.

KH might be 'childish' and but it is not dated, it could quite easily be released today and still be acceptable in fact KH2 was just released (in US and Japan... :() and there has been no significant upgrade to the graphics and not because it is not possible but because it is not necessary. That is rare in this day and I consider it to be unique. if you release Suikoden 3 (excuse if there is one) today they would be pimping out the gfx.

RPG's have been on a downward spiral over the last few years, it's all glitz and no tits (not in a figurative sense, for there has been much boobage on show), I think KH is just immune to most of it.

The most talked about RPG this year in Obilivon, now I've never been a fan of the Morrowind series games, I respect what they do I just don't like it. I've heard about it, haven't read any reviews because bar the score at the end they usually talk nothing but shite to the gamer. But anyways, I've watched a guy play it and listened to a few of them talk about it down at the local LAN, from what I gather it is open as hell, you see it .. you can go there, you see it you can move it around some, watched a video of a get beat a horse and it flipping over and stuff .. very funny. Nobody has mentioned the story, not once, I have no idea if it even has one or is just a series of quests.
I heard it plays like a single player version of an MMORPG and from the sounds of it .. it stories like one too. I'm sure there is story there you just kinda have to run around and find it. This is ofcourse good as it lets the user be as in-depth as they like but it dilutes the gaming experiance imo, it sounds like Grand theft Auto after the mindless violence gets old ... it's usually not worth playing (San Andreas had a okay little story but it wasn't very deep). Oblivion may ofc not be like this but until I get round to playing it, this is my impression.

Wandered off the mark haven't I, my point although murky is thus, and if my impression of Oblivion are correct ofc, that RPG's these days are all about style over substance.

Even yourself Mr. Raven, have choose either old or slighty less mainstream RPG's where graphics are not as impressive as the 'market leaders'.

Image

this looks like it was made in 1990, no kid today is really gonna go for that (an they are the future) and only the hardcore RPG fan is gonna go for it. For example I bought Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen the other day, just to have it, it's a cool RPG for it's time but it looks old as hell it's hard to care to play it when you turn into creatures and end up as a badly drawn carpet. Now it was clearly all that was possible at the time and the other games in the series which are now .. most clearly ARPG's are much more graphically appealing and easier to play, now I love the series but I just can't get my teeth into Blood Omen again, because it's not 1995.


WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU GETTING AT ?

good question, and I am being good at saying what my point isn't. Basically it's 2006 there is a sweet spot in terms of graphics, too much and it's all about the GFX (see: FFX/ FFX-2) , too little an it ages like crazy, and it's not as fun, you find yourself thinking they should re-release this.

KH is right in that sweet spot imo, it's not going realism therefore it gets away with it, however it does raise interesting questions about where video games are heading and the dating of gfx. Within 10 years I can easily see Photo realistic gfx being common place within games, this was attempted somewhat by the MEGACD back in the 90's and some of them where B movies that you press buttons at with really shitty video quality. Do we want photo realism ?

A game is a game not an interactive film, FF7's Kalm 'five years ago...' sequence which takes 20 minutes to complete spamming X with fast text on it's a mark of things to come if we follow down that road, there was bit of complaint about this with one of the recent MGS games as well. I suppose time will tell on that score but I believe KH should serve a benchmark to this, you don't need super over the top graphics to make a quality RPG and make it should be content and not pixel count that should matter.


KH is directed by Nomura (concept artist for FFVII, FFVIII, FFX and a bunch), alot of the team that worked with him have worked on FF's before. THIS IS a different battle system however, it's still basically; Atk, Magic, Item or Summon but it's on the fucking move, no cut away to the 'battle screen', there is plenty of combat almost the same amount as the random battle atk of FF's, accessable at all the times via quick switch menus, used to solve ingame puzzles.

There is more beneath the surface than just a game about mickey mouse.
Last edited by Mik on Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Masteroftheweb
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Post by Masteroftheweb » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:30 pm

Lastwolf wrote: if you release Suikoden 3 (excuse if there is one) today they would be pimping out the gfx.
Actually, the graphics were rather sub-par.... it was also a very horrbile game... despite what people say, I though 4 was alright. And 5 (a recent release) seems to be kicking up a fuss about how it's comparable to 2. The graphics aren't on par with FF10 or higher though.


This leads me to yor question though, "Do we want photo realism?"

Personally... for me? No. I have always been firm on the fact, that if I want realism, I'll go outside. I like my games being different. The more human we make our characters look, the less interested I get.
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Post by XenoRaven » Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:40 pm

I never said that a combat system had to be complicated in order to be good. It has to be good in order to be good lol. Nothing about the combat itself was particularly worth mentioning, the in game magic and item menus were difficult to navigate, only about 10% of the non-boss enemies actually required any strategy, and the special moves later on in the game were wily and uncontrollable. Just to cite some examples. Also, KH is missing the ever present RPG element of character customization.

Also, I don't care what people claim the Elder Scrolls games are, cause I know from experience that Oblivion (Morrowind could be added too) gets more praise than it deserves. At least KH's combat could be considered mediocre. Oblivion's is just broken and boring. But it gets a bit of a pass since that's not really the focus of the game. The focus is more on exploration, and the open-ended nature of the game. Unfortunately, I found this to be poorly executed as well, which is why I didn't include it in my list of RPG's that were better than KH. And by the way, the combat systems in those two games are only alike in the sense that they're based in real time.

I will say this though. You guys are spot on in the belief that RPG's are a dying genre and need a breath of innovation. You guys are also right to say that real-time combat is the future of the RPG. In fact, that's been reflected in sales. I just haven't seen a mainstream RPG implement a really good real-time battle system yet. Tales of Symphonia did a great job, but never got the attention. However, I'm looking forward to Final Fantasy XII to set a new standard for the genre. The guy that created tactics is the creator of XII, and so I expect some magic. =P

Finally, I want to stress that just because I knock KH and Oblivion doesn't mean I hate them. Also, I don't expect every game to be a genius, groundbreaking masterpiece. However, I also believe a game should only be praised as much as it's worth. Which is why I try to look at the shortcomings of a game, as well as what it does well.
Last edited by XenoRaven on Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by kaos » Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:11 pm

as ff12 draws nearer I find my self loosing a taste for FF in general, to be honest I dont know why. its setup in the tactics vagrant story world, and thats a damn good world to be set in. but its not giving me any giddy points over here, at least not any more.

maybe its becuase as it draws near, so does 13. and so far everything i know about ff13 makes it seem like its taking a flying leap and a summersualt over the shark.

I know even less about Lost oddessy, and maybe the lack of info is part of what gets me excited about it. but Im betting thats gonna be the rpg that sews things up quite nicely
the 10 decade span alone, sounds like a hell of a move.

anyway.
KH lacks costumization. I certainly agree
however I would hardly considre customization an staple of the rpg genre. especially of the japanese vareity. you pretty much get what the give you and learn to you use it or fail.

costumization is a feature Id more associate with the MMOrpg genre.
I guess you could consider somthing like deciding who gets what materia or summon or what ever customization. but thats at the lowest form, since it really doesnt effect much of anything you do.
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Post by XenoRaven » Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:24 pm

Not necessarily. Citing the examples from before, Final Fantasy VII had a great customization system. The materia system was one of the best things about that game. FF Tactics obviously had huge customization options as far as how you built your party. Tales of Symphonia allowed you to develop your character's abilities based on style and preference. Also, organizing your party a certain way also unlocked different and more powerful combo moves. That's a concept seen in a game as old as Chrono Trigger.

While it's true you don't have the same control over class and stats like in an MMO or Oblivion, party customization is still a very real concept in the Japanese RPG. It's just done considerably different, and generally in a more subtle manner.
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Post by Bogey » Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:38 pm

Tales of Symphonia had a terrible combat system. I would've prefered something turn based in that example. I still don't know how I managed to get past the preschool storyline though.
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Post by Masteroftheweb » Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:11 pm

I liked trapping things in the corner and killing them quick in Tales of Phantasia
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Post by Mik » Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:09 pm

FF7 lacked alot of customisation, you could pick weapon/ bracer and accessory that's 3 items. Amittedly the addition of materia as customisation tool yeah... kinda .. every character could cast with equal skill and dmg.

KH had weapon and acessory and only 4 castable spells, with a pethora of 'combos' available to choose from for chains. It would be fairly easy to expand on that with ease it just wasn't needed for the game.
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