Still Evolving?

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Squirrel
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Post by Squirrel » Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:16 am

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/earth/...925422.700.html

This is an interesting point, which takes the evolution debate further.

Some evolutionists believe that we ARE evolving morally and intellectually, by cultural changes. However, in biological sense of changes in the gene pool it's impossible to say. This is very true, as it is impossible to observe human evolution in action. But saying it isn't happening is an increasingly difficult posistion to defend scientifically. Many people would rather have believe that evolution stopped about 50,000 years ago. Yet recent findings have shown that this isn't so. In fact, there is every reason to believe it's happening right now.

An experiment was carried out in the University of Chicago last year (Bruce Lahn). It found that brain development occured in recent history and swept quickly through the population. This was shown in two genes. The first one was a variant of a gene called microcephallin, which occured some 14,000 - 60, 000 years ago and is now carried by 70% of people. The other a variant of the APSM gene, is about 500 - 14,000 years old and is carried by about a quarter of the Earth's population. No one knows the functions of these genes, but it could be a good start.

It all raises questions, even of they are uncomfertable. Is natural selection still a driving force in humans, given that our survival is often less dependent on genes than technology? How can a genome change attributes we value, such as intelligence? What will our species look like 1000 years from now? This may be confusing, controversial even, but it's something that we cannot ignore.

In a sense, evolution is simply the change over time in a species' gene pool - all the genes in all the individuals alive at one time.
1. A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. See Synonyms at development.
2.
1. The process of developing.
2. Gradual development.
3. Biology.
1. Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.
2. The historical development of a related group of organisms; phylogeny.
4. A movement that is part of a set of ordered movements.
5. Mathematics. The extraction of a root of a quantity.
This means that all species are evolving, even those that reproduce by cloning (asexual reproduction), because DNA undoubtably changes over time through random mutation, and because some individuals of a species will have more offspring than others.

(This is more complicating for me to explain, as this part of evolution IS complicating, so please forgive me for my ramblings! ¬_¬)

Imagine a boat bobbing on the sea. This represents all the genes present in the human population at the moment. When the boat is left on it's own devices, the boat wonders aimlessly. This is "genetic drift", where a species is changing randomly without any driving force from its environment. If the boat has sails it heads of with seeming purpose, when the wind blows. This is like natural selection, in which an external force influences the direction taken by the gene boat. This is the driving force for adaption to change in environmental conditions. For sexual selection, the force is put forth by other members of the species preferring to mate with individuals who possess desirable characteristics, which then become more prevalent. If the boat has a tiller and someone at the wheel to steer it, this could be similar to artifical selection. Which is similar to dog breeding say. The gene boat even encompasses artifical selection by genetic engineering. However, to what extent is evolution of our species being shaped by these elements?

Some experts argue that natural selection is diminishing in importance, and as it does, genetic drift comes to the fore. But even if they are correct, the aimlessness of drift makes it of limited interest. With natural selection however, it is clear that the human genome is not immune from mutations, some of which can be an advantage. But are there any selection processes at work?

Some believe, that in the developed world, survival no longer depends on genes. 500 years ago, a British baby was less likely to make it reproductive age (50% chance), than of now where 99% of British babies do make it to adolesence. Measuring reproductive success is difficult (as we need to take in account the development of science), but compared to Britain in the Middle Ages, survival and reproduction rates have led to a decrease in the opportunity for natural selection to act today.

Yet we know that genes can make a difference to survival and reproduction. One obvious example is genes to confer resistance to emerging diseases. Small pox is a good example, as in the Middle Ages, some people were immune to the disease which was rife at that time. Some parts of Africa have shown frequencies of one gene that offers some protection against HIV-1. There are others too, if not puzzling. One form of the dopamine receptor gene DRD4 has become more common over the past few thousand years. The variant is associated with ADHD.

Therefore, natural selection IS still at work, and it wouldn't come as a suprise to find more examples. These days, we live in an era of rapid technology progress, and hence a fast changing environment. Technological change has driven natural selection into the past. The invention of diary herding, for example, selected for a gene that gives adults the ability to digest milk sugars. Yet, some believe that technological change doesn't necessarily drive natural selection. Once culture emerged, it provided more non-genetic means to adapt to change. Though it is true in many ways, it does not mean that evolution has stopped. Technology and medicine, by enabling almost everyone to have kids might be causing "reverse evolution" by preventing unfit genes from being purged from the gene pool. It could be causing gradual deterioration of many functions, especially disease defences, due to artifical selection.

Culture itself could be driving natural selection. There is positive feedback between our culture and our genes that led to the rapid evolution of the most characteristic human attribute, the mind. No doubt our minds have shaped our environment, which have led to evolutionary changes to the way we think, and it is continuing. In the modern world, nobody can do everything, so the real advantage today is doing something not many others can do well.

But what about sexual selection? High rates of outbreeding, migration and cross-ethnic mating are recombining our genes at unprecendented rates. What is more, our gene boat is acquiring new mutations faster than ever. This is probably due to assortative mating. This is based on intelligence, personality, mental health, physical health and attractivness.

I think we are evolving at a swift pace. It's hard to say were we will go from here, but who knows....maybe we will be more symmetrical, in a 100 years time ¬_¬
Last edited by Squirrel on Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Super Goat Weed » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:01 am

i don't think we're evolving at all, mostly because this statment: "something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form" is bogus. Most mutations cause harm rather then good. Seems to me like it's a poor attempt to find evidence for darwinistic evolution.
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Post by Squirrel » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:57 pm

It isn't an attempt to find evidence of Darwinistic evolution. The whole topic is an attempt to find out whether we really are still evolving. The main points I have discussed can be viewed in NewScientist (I believe they have NewScientist in the US, at about $4.95? ><) and this is why I have chosen this topic to be seperate from your topic Ben. Can I just ask one thing though. Have you actually read the article? Also, I have shown that mutations can cause good rather than harm. We know that cancer is a mutation caused by toxic chemicals and radiation, but look at how are immune system has evovled over the years. I don't want to repeat myself because the points I made are in the first post of this topic.
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Post by Super Goat Weed » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:43 am

not if i have to pay for it no. I just misunderstood your agenda that's all. Do i think humans are changing? of course, but i think what's happening is more of a degradation then an enhancement. I would say the same of everything.
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Post by mog » Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:52 am

Nothing earth shattering from what I read in your post.

Genetic drift does seem to be a pervailing part in human evolution over the past little while, and I don't see that changing.

Since the gene pool is the world over, there's a big range of genes. Even the next mass extinction may not kill off humans. Only problem is the long time between generations, but that's the cycle.
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Post by Squirrel » Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:57 am

Mmmhmm I agree it's not something earth shattering. But I sincerly don't think it was meant to be *shrugs*. I could have included the last part of the article here, but I didn't find it nessercary.

I do find some flaws in the article, and I cannot agree with everything the author says about future evolution.

I just believe that if we had evolved all those millions of years ago, why should evolution stop now? And Ben, can you please explain why you think humans changing are more of a "degradation then an enhancement"?
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Post by Mik » Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:25 pm

We'll we don't have any 'real' natural preadtors and are only advancing via technology, we have forgotten more than we know.
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Post by Bogey » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:42 pm

I believe that in the developed countries, survival of the fittest doesn't matter anymore so all genes good or bad are being passed on. However in 3rd world countries it still does have a greater effects. Therefore the human race in these undeveloped countries will continue to evolve until they all become superhuman and take over the rest of us.
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Post by Squirrel » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:35 am

Lastwolf wrote:We'll we don't have any 'real' natural preadtors and are only advancing via technology, we have forgotten more than we know.
Kudos to you there Mik. I fully agree we're developing technology, that we're forgetting our own roots. But if we're developing technology, doesn't that mean we're deveolping our brains as well? In other words, we're finding new discoveries day in and day out (esp. with technology), doesn't that mean our brains are evolving?

And aren't you a natural born predetor Mik? Being a wolf and everything? O_o
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Post by Super Goat Weed » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:42 am

my statment means that i have never seen a 'good' mutation. Even the examples given, like sickle cell, are beyond a stretch. I seriously doubt the immunity to a disease is compensated by cutting your life expectancy by at least 40 years.
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Post by Mik » Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:33 am

Squirrel wrote:Kudos to you there Mik. I fully agree we're developing technology, that we're forgetting our own roots. But if we're developing technology, doesn't that mean we're deveolping our brains as well? In other words, we're finding new discoveries day in and day out (esp. with technology), doesn't that mean our brains are evolving?

And aren't you a natural born predetor Mik? Being a wolf and everything? O_o

Not necessarily, in fact the opposte could be true, increasing the use of technology would increase the lazy mind, the computers take care of all that.


and I don't like eating humans ... bad press (see: Big bad wolf, wolf from LRRH)... however squirrels are a bitesized snack for the busy wolf :P
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Post by Super Goat Weed » Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:06 pm

if you can catch em

and before you even suggest goats, may i remind you i have horns, and that i just filed them this morning.
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Post by Squirrel » Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:33 am

Lastwolf wrote:Not necessarily, in fact the opposte could be true, increasing the use of technology would increase the lazy mind, the computers take care of all that.
and I don't like eating humans ... bad press (see: Big bad wolf, wolf from LRRH)... however squirrels are a bitesized snack for the busy wolf :P
Yeah, some customer at work said "These computers are really controlling us aren't they?" She meant it as a joke....but I can see her point, and yours too in fact.

However, I fully disagree with snacking of squirrels issue. Must we have to discuss this again? You DO realise us squirrels have been stashing crack don't you?
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Post by kaos » Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:43 pm

Super Goat Weed wrote:my statment means that i have never seen a 'good' mutation.  Even the examples given, like sickle cell, are beyond a stretch.  I seriously doubt the immunity to a disease is compensated by cutting your life expectancy by at least 40 years.

Id say it actually does compensate...

heres why.
cuts your life expectancy to 40...right?

think about it.
that could actually be an increase.
the only reason we have a long life expectancy now anyway is due to modern medicine.

take that away and watch how fast we start dropping.

as far as a "good" mutation...
we certainly are a lot taller then we were only 100 years ago.

wether thats good or not tho is debatable, but i visted custers house and saw the mans uniform and his wifes dress....
seems like youd have to be 8 years old to were clothes that size.

another good mutation is the one found in africa, were loads of people seemed to have developed a sort of resistance to HIV.
however...it wont catch on into the general population. becuase the only way to find out you have a resistance to it or not is to become a carrier.

I bet lots of other mutations just slip passed without anybody taking note.
either becuase their A) "normal" as in somthing that doesnt appeat strange enuff to take notice. or b)percived as a problem ad then "fixed"

if a person had an expanded lung capacity and showed no problems becuase of it, and didnt look strange. we let that pass.

if a person has an expanded lung capcity and has a mishapen chest because of it...we get them corrective surgery.

whose to say that that mishapen chest isnt somthing we're all ment to have later on?
Last edited by kaos on Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Super Goat Weed » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:35 pm

what's happening in africa isn't a mutation, it's simply that AIDS can't kill certian people. This wasn't a mutation that developed, it was there all along, AIDS merely kills those who don't have it. What i'm saying is AIDS didn't cause the immunity, the immunity was always there, AIDS just kills of people that don't have it.

As far as being taller, that's already been atributed to hormones in our meat supply, the abundance of protien in our modern diet, and the fact that people simply know how to eat better, and are able to eat better then they were 200 or so years ago. No mutation there either. Even if you were gonna say tall genes, then what? haven't those always existed?

I'm saying there's no downright genetic mutation that's been a good thing to society. Ever. And i believe anemia kills you much eariler then 40. i'll have to look that one up.
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